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Post by qmark on Jan 28, 2021 20:12:56 GMT
Should we have same rules for everybody and same cap for buildings for everybody ? in this respect, pads are currently not the same cap for everybody.
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Post by gazalba02 on Jan 28, 2021 23:28:35 GMT
Should we have same rules for everybody and same cap for buildings for everybody ? in this respect, pads are currently not the same cap for everybody.
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Post by Silverman AG on Jan 28, 2021 23:45:29 GMT
Should we have same rules for everybody and same cap for buildings for everybody ? in this respect, pads are currently not the same cap for everybody. Imo the barrier to entry for ASR and even constructing an LP (cost, time) is very high, and the lack of building cap parity should be addressed.
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Post by Silverman AG on Jan 28, 2021 23:48:13 GMT
Think about it this way, if veterans who started before 2020 had an automatic 10% admin reduction, we'd all be raging to have that fixed. Same concept here- just because some players had L13 pads before the L8 cap was introduced doesn't mean they should have an unfair advantage over newer entrants into ASR. This technically greatly favors larger companies/veterans
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Post by migroup on Jan 29, 2021 0:45:32 GMT
I think the grandfathered Launchpad is problematic. I know Patrik tried his best to remedy the situation in a friendly manner when the lvl8 cap was initially enforced. However I believe it would have been better for him to simply enforce a downgrade of anyone at above level 8. People have argued that this would be unfair as they have sunk resources into the additional levels and quite possibly used SimBoost to speed it up, but refunding this was an option at the time. While the increase of the launch fee had some detrimental effect to those above level 8, in the grand scheme of things it isn't sufficient.
In my opinion, the ability for a few to mass produce ASR is having long term detrimental effects on the AS industry. ASR used to be sold for around $340/unit in normal economy. This allowed people with launchpads to purchase and launch other peoples rockets. However, due to the extremely fine margins, this simply isn't profitable unless you have really low Admin Overhead or produce your own rockets. As a result of the shrinking margins, there is a shrinking profitability in sors.
On top of this, the cheap ASR is allowing people to inflate their company value by just researching random AS products.
The other downside is seller certs, one guy, we all know who, is practically guaranteed to get top 3 seller certs for eternity now.
I have effectively left sor production now, as it's no more profitable to make q6 over q4 as there is so much supply of lower q that the price has stagnated. Q6 in normal econ is now 5k/unit cheaper than prior to the margin changes.
I don't think this will change anything however, because nobody sees the bigger picture, or even cares for that matter. This issue has been mentioned numerous times, it's frankly ridiculous it's being ignored. Imagine they put a cap on other building levels at lvl 10 and players with larger infrastructure levels were grandfathered in and got to keep their inherent benefits, people would be furious. But no, this issue gets to remain.
You could call my opinion biased as I was in SOR production, but it's not even about that, it's just inherently UNFAIR. An UNFAIR gain is against the FPA for christ sake.
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SOTV
Forester
Posts: 9
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Post by SOTV on Jan 29, 2021 3:59:58 GMT
The grandfathered launch should be cut. As someone who was a launch from the start at lvl 8 I had a 13 min launch rate, the grand fathered pads can launch 26 rockets + a few more in the same amount of time. As qmark did the math just to meat volume he said I would need 32 lvl 8 launch pads to meet the volume on a map with 17 slots. While I can’t meet volume I could meet under pricing the grandfathered by building my own sor that would grant me asr at 240 a unit, but would be useless.
patrik has stated over multiple times asr has been nerfed by cost and reduction of research aswell as the launch pad cap that it was because ASR was too cheap and should be sold around 360 a unit atleast, yet he lets the grandfathered launch pads stay who keep the prices low even after launch cost was changed but not time, so asr still stays well below the 360 goal of patrik.
while I was still launching between me, Chinatown, nongshim, qmark we made prices at one point under 290.
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Post by eaglewai on Jan 29, 2021 9:44:02 GMT
Same cap same rule should be applied to everybody, even grandfathered.
Out of LP topic, imagine if Patrik thinks Rec buildings are giving out too much exp and decide to nerf it to either 2 rec buildings or lv2 cap. But grandfathered the current 3 rec buildings and those with lv3. It creates an unfair level playing field to everyone else.
Back to LP, rather than launch time reduced by 50% every lv, I just ran a simple calculation, if the launch time nerf to 25% reduction every lv, rather than 50%, it will make launch time less attractive to high lv LP as time saving is not much. Then not really need a cap on that.
It is just an idea suggestion obviously, I'll let the professionals to run the numbers for production cost or other alternatives.
lv 50% 75% of previous lv 1 32 hr 32 hr 2 16 hr 24 hr 3 8 hr 18 hr 4 4 hr 13.5 hr 5 2 hr 10.13 hr 6 1 hr 7.59 hr 7 30 mins 5.70 hr 8 15 mins 4.27 hr 9 7.50 mins 3.20 hr 10 3.75 mins 2.40 hr 11 1.88 mins 1.80 hr 12 56.25 sec 1.35 hr 13 28.13 sec 1.01 hr 14 xx xx 45.61 mins 15 xx xx 34.21 mins 16 xx xx 25.66 mins 17 xx xx 19.24 mins 18 xx xx 14.43 mins 19 xx xx 10.82 mins 20 xx xx 8.12 mins
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Post by migroup on Jan 29, 2021 12:35:36 GMT
I feel a 4 hour launch time at lvl 8 would just make everyone leave the industry Eaglewai.
I like Eaglewai's idea, however what about if it was tapered to be a linear improvement, instead of an hyperbolic curve. Level 01 Launch time = 54 mins Level 02 Launch time = 52 mins Level 03 Launch time = 50 mins Level 04 Launch time = 48 mins Level 05 Launch time = 46 mins Level 06 Launch time = 44 mins Level 07 Launch time = 42 mins Level 08 Launch time = 40 mins Level 09 Launch time = 38 mins Level 10 Launch time = 36 mins Level 11 Launch time = 34 mins Level 12 Launch time = 32 mins Level 13 Launch time = 30 mins
This way no one would be materially affected, yet throughput would be greatly diminished and it wouldn't ruin it for everybody. Here lvl 13 has a 33% bonus in launch, but 5 extra levels of AO. With the current mechanism, a lvl 13 pad has a 1600% bonus over lvl 8.
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Post by qmark on Jan 29, 2021 13:08:26 GMT
super simple fair and square solution!!! fair for everybody and under the same rule
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es
Farmer
Posts: 1
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Post by es on Jan 29, 2021 19:08:29 GMT
Like old Players already having Advantage in Research (Which is fair, they worked for that). But the Grandfathered Pad is just too much of an advantage that no one else can work towards. Its messing up the Balance.
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Post by dynowings on Jan 30, 2021 14:16:16 GMT
The sad thing is, why is this even a question? The real shame about this situation is that the vast majority of players believe that everyone is capped at level 8, and have no idea that there are players who don't even operate under those restrictions. While wages were modified to combat the literal competitive advantage, the other issue revolves more around the ability for a higher level LP to dump more ASR on the market than is feasible for anyone to compete with.
Since I've put a fair amount of thought into this, I was thinking why not make it a Logarithmic curve? That way, each upgrade statistically gives less than prior upgrades, up to a point where the difference in time to launch becomes negligible. This would encourage leveling LPs to a point, just as they are currently and would still provide people not willing to push their LP to 8+ the ability to produce a decent amount of ASR.
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Post by qmark on Jan 31, 2021 14:09:04 GMT
and also sad, if the pads were capped at level 8 because any way past that are super over powered, why then allowing the others that area already super overpowered?
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zyz
Oil Patch Laborer
Posts: 94
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Post by zyz on Jan 31, 2021 16:54:34 GMT
i didn't even think that a problem. I thought that everyone is capped to 15min launch time as p[er level 8. If not it is very serious issue and needs to be fixed asap. I also agree that current model of launch time (32*(1/2)^launch pad level) is very bad because it makes lauch pad of level 4 and below not usable due to extreme wages cost per research produce. I like both logarithmic solution as well as linear one both with some cap.
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Post by qmark on Feb 1, 2021 1:32:41 GMT
there's an article that is written since a while and not published yet. yes it's a problem that people still are not aware of cause PADs are not so widespread and indeed, in the current situation I would say that even below the capped level 8 it doesnt make sense to produce ASR. so the entry barrier is very high in terms of cost for the building, time invested and just after that to notice that you made all the investment in vain, cause you cant actually compete with Level 13, no matter what.
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Post by AG Forumer Inc. on Feb 1, 2021 2:33:35 GMT
What if launch time was simply the base time divided by level? This would keep the grandfathered launchpads from having an unfair advantage and remove the need for the cap in the first place. A side effect would be that upgrading launch pads beyond level 2 would no longer reduce the per-unit worker cost as a level 8 LP would have 8x the wages of a level 1 while producing ASR 8x as quickly, so it would work better if the patent value of ASR was increased. The base time would also need to be reduced as a 32 hr base time would make a level 8 LP take 4 hrs. If the base time was reduced to 2 hrs, then a level 8 would produce ASR just as quickly as it does now, but a level 13 LP would take a little over 9 minutes instead of less than half a minute to launch a rocket.
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